Curse

Akolo · Nov 29, 2008, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

spamming Fireball (if you have that on your bar) on recharge is always a good idea. The more you spam the faster enemies die.

just had to chip in. this shows your true nature? :P

weretoad · Nov 29, 2008, 03:41 PM // 15:41

lol game theory is this really tight thing i'm reading about in a book about social problems and group logic. i was disappointed when i read lol. very intersting

aapo · Nov 29, 2008, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akolo

just had to chip in. this shows your true nature? :P

- How would you use the skill Fireball?

maraxusofk · Nov 29, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- How would you use the skill Fireball?

as part of a spike? the aoe dmg helps throw off whos the target in the spike. used in ha sav heat balance spikes back early this year. gvg used rodgart mind blast, but rodgart served a similar purpose if in a spike as fireball.

Akolo · Nov 29, 2008, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- How would you use the skill Fireball?

Its very useful outside of my skillbar.

[DE] · Nov 29, 2008, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akolo

Its very useful outside of my skillbar.

Haha. Agreed for once.

aapo · Nov 29, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akolo

Its very useful outside of my skillbar.

- So you don't know how to use a simple skill like Fireball. Points go to maraxusofk.

[DE] · Nov 29, 2008, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- So you don't know how to use a simple skill like Fireball. Points go to maraxusofk.

He's saying that bringing fireball is a waste of a skill slot in the first place. The best play for having fireball is simply not to have it.

DreamWind · Nov 29, 2008, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- In game of Starcraft, building units on your barracks and hatchery is always a good idea. The more you build, the better your odds of winning. In Guildwars, spamming Fireball (if you have that on your bar) on recharge is always a good idea. The more you spam the faster enemies die.

In Chess, capturing opponent pieces is not always a good idea. Capturing them might expose your more valuable pieces. In Poker, playing out every hand is not always a good idea. If you play every hand, you lose money if opponents have better hands.

Do you see the fundamental difference between these games? In latter two, what you do defines your success. In former two, there's clear objective and way of playing which players must strive to achieve. If you sit around with your energy full, you're not being effective player. If your skills are not recharging all the time, those skills are not being used effectively. Simple as that.

Dude you are so wrong here its not even funny. In any reputable game of skill, what you do determines your success. Anybody who claims "there is a clear objective which you must strive to achieve" at ANYTHING is probably bad at that specific thing. The best players of ANY game or sport know that you NEVER EVER get there....you are always trying to get better.

Your theory has so many problems. Spamming skills on recharge in Guild Wars is going to get you nowhere (unless the skill is inbalanced but thats another topic altogether). You can be super effective at Starcraft or Guild Wars and still lose horribly because a player is better at adapting on the fly than you are. In Poker or Chess you can make a stupid suboptimal plays and still come out winning the game (especially in poker). But even in those games what you do in the long term determines your success.

Faster APM in Starcraft means almost nothing. There are guys with 400+ apm losing to guys with 200+ all the time. And lastly, spamming fireball on recharge (like you suggested) is not always a good idea. What about saving it for spikes? Besides, good players are questioning why you have fireball on your bar to begin with.

moriz · Nov 30, 2008, 12:26 AM // 00:26

skills in guild wars are limited by energy/adrenaline/recharge. troops in starcraft are limited by economy. for both, it's sometimes better to NOT use the skill, or NOT build troops. in a fast factory build in starcraft, building too many marines will cause you to lose. if you are doing a 3 hatch muta build, you don't produce anything on all three hatcheries/lair right before the spire goes up, to save larvae and minerals/gas so you can pump out 9 mutalisks at the same time.

all aapo has shown is that he has superficial knowledge of how these games are played. to him: kindly stfu before making yourself sound even more stupid than you already are.

aapo · Nov 30, 2008, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Dude you are so wrong here its not even funny. In any reputable game of skill, what you do determines your success. Anybody who claims "there is a clear objective which you must strive to achieve" at ANYTHING is probably bad at that specific thing.

no u

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Your theory has so many problems. Spamming skills on recharge in Guild Wars is going to get you nowhere (unless the skill is inbalanced but thats another topic altogether).

- Get me nowhere? What is the fastest way to get 10 minions up for minion master? To tap the minion skill as soon as there are corpses and possibly beat corpse control competition that way. On other extreme, if you never actually use that Resurrection Signet, you might as well go in with 7 skills. Potential of this kind has little place in Guild Wars. It's a simple theory: use skills which give most benefit. No need for hex removal in PvE, since skills like Heal Party take care of whatever minor pressure there is.

I took Fireball as an example skill since your typical nm FoW PUG has 3-4 Elementalist "nukers" casting Meteor Shower on single Abyssal, which is about the most ineffective skill usage as can be. These players are bad because they don't understand the primary resources of this game - time and damage. Character classes are built around these. Ranger interrupts to prevent damage, or prevent damage-prevention. Monk prots/heals to prevent enemy damage. Blind on Warrior reduces damage, Shame on enemy Monk increases own team's damage on tertiary level. This might sound difficult since average IQ of posters on this forums seems to be around 80.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

skills in guild wars are limited by energy/adrenaline/recharge. troops in starcraft are limited by economy. for both, it's sometimes better to NOT use the skill, or NOT build troops. in a fast factory build in starcraft, building too many marines will cause you to lose. if you are doing a 3 hatch muta build, you don't produce anything on all three hatcheries/lair right before the spire goes up, to save larvae and minerals/gas so you can pump out 9 mutalisks at the same time.

- So you're supporting my point that "strategy" in these games is really nothing more than gambling on your opponent's expectations?

DreamWind · Nov 30, 2008, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

no u

I'm glad you didn't respond to my point, thus proving I am correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

Get me nowhere? What is the fastest way to get 10 minions up for minion master? To tap the minion skill as soon as there are corpses and possibly beat corpse control competition that way. On other extreme, if you never actually use that Resurrection Signet, you might as well go in with 7 skills. Potential of this kind has little place in Guild Wars. It's a simple theory: use skills which give most benefit. No need for hex removal in PvE, since skills like Heal Party take care of whatever minor pressure there is.

You keep trying to make a point and then supporting it was terrible examples that are never used in actual Guild Wars competitive play. If somebody with no credentials whatsoever (as far as I know) tries to make a point, they really need good examples.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

I took Fireball as an example skill since your typical nm FoW PUG has 3-4 Elementalist "nukers" casting Meteor Shower on single Abyssal, which is about the most ineffective skill usage as can be. These players are bad because they don't understand the primary resources of this game - time and damage. Character classes are built around these. Ranger interrupts to prevent damage, or prevent damage-prevention. Monk prots/heals to prevent enemy damage. Blind on Warrior reduces damage, Shame on enemy Monk increases own team's damage on tertiary level. This might sound difficult since average IQ of posters on this forums seems to be around 80.

You are trying to talk about high level concepts, and then supporting it with "pugs in FoW" or common knowledge that everybody already knows. You aren't helping your case here at all.

If you are going to make claims such as "apm being everything in Starcraft" or "what you do in certain games not mattering since there is a clear objective you must achieve", you better back up your claims or prove to us you know what the hell you are talking about by actually performing, instead of saying everybody but you has an IQ of 80 and running away.

aapo · Nov 30, 2008, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

You keep trying to make a point and then supporting it was terrible examples that are never used in actual Guild Wars competitive play. If somebody with no credentials whatsoever (as far as I know) tries to make a point, they really need good examples.

- Oh for the sake of crying baby Jesus:

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.

Go ahead and write me an essay how much I "lack credibility" or how my ladder position isn't quite up to your standards. You're not even participating in the discussion, just had to throw in some slurs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

If you are going to make claims such as "apm being everything in Starcraft" or "what you do in certain games not mattering since there is a clear objective you must achieve", you better back up your claims or prove to us you know what the hell you are talking about by actually performing, instead of saying everybody but you has an IQ of 80 and running away.

1. I never made such claims.
2. We're talking about game theory here. Go compare your e-penis with someone else.

Shayne Hawke · Nov 30, 2008, 04:29 AM // 04:29

I'd have to agree with your hypothesis, although I feel you're giving veterans a little bit too much credit in some fashions.

Though there may be a vast world in GW, it's not a very changing world in the sense that what's in one place one day will more than likely be there the next. A well-balanced or skilled player will be able to handle all of such areas with ease, but there are few reasons which would bring them to do so. Most would probably rather stick to doing elite areas or some series of actions over and over to achieve a reward, and the actions they do depend on their interests.

A recent example of that would be how people used the new Kurzick/Luxon faction update to find a more enjoyable way of getting faction, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they will try to do a little bit of everything all the time.

Also, an idea of teamwork doesn't really show itself in a team of one human, three heroes, and four henchmen as it might in a team full of players. True, there is a degree of synergy to be mastered in being able to adjust builds to accomplish different tasks, and then applying that to make a team of builds work together, but that synergy is also found in human groups as well. Playing with humans would also force players to communicate their ideas with each other instead of just c-spacing or something.

Good idea overall, and I would agree with saying that being a veteran of GW has improved my ability to adapt to new kinds or styles of games.

DreamWind · Nov 30, 2008, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.

Go ahead and write me an essay how much I "lack credibility" or how my ladder position isn't quite up to your standards. You're not even participating in the discussion, just had to throw in some slurs.

People are attacking you because your arguments have ZERO substanace to argue against. They essentially consist of outrageous claims backed up by terrible examples and no experience whatsoever. Frankly most people are just laughing at this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

1. I never made such claims.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

However, the game of Starcraft is largely pre-defined, so such thing as button presses per minute directly correlates with your ability to play the game.

Do you see the fundamental difference between these games? In latter two, what you do defines your success. In former two, there's clear objective and way of playing which players must strive to achieve.

My oh my that was quick to find.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

2. We're talking about game theory here. Go compare your e-penis with someone else.

You are the one that said we have an IQ of 80. Go compare your e-mind elsewhere.

[DE] · Nov 30, 2008, 08:10 AM // 08:10

This trolling needs to stop. If aapo isn't a troll then I'm amazed of how much ignorance can radiate from one person.

aapo · Nov 30, 2008, 12:11 PM // 12:11

I said:
"However, the game of Starcraft is largely pre-defined, so such thing as button presses per minute directly correlates with your ability to play the game."

You read that as:
"apm being everything in Starcraft"

I said:
"there's clear objective and way of playing which players must strive to achieve."

You read that as:
"what you do in certain games not mattering since there is a clear objective you must achieve"

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

This trolling needs to stop. If aapo isn't a troll then I'm amazed of how much ignorance can radiate from one person.

- Here comes the troll card? Are you going to call me Hitler next? That would be the classic ending for debate where opponent doesn't even try to counter things said but rather tries to insult character making these claims. You're the one who is trolling here, mister.

Avarre · Nov 30, 2008, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

I said:
"However, the game of Starcraft is largely pre-defined, so such thing as button presses per minute directly correlates with your ability to play the game."

You read that as:
"apm being everything in Starcraft"

Actually, I just read it as "wrong".

DreamWind · Nov 30, 2008, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

I said: "However, the game of Starcraft is largely pre-defined, so such thing as button presses per minute directly correlates with your ability to play the game."

Yes...and the problem is the game of Starcraft is not predefined, and apm has absolutely nothing to do with your ability to play the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

I said:"there's clear objective and way of playing which players must strive to achieve."

You said that as opposed to what you do determining your success, which is just wrong on so many levels.

Again...if you are going to make wild claims, you are going to need a lot more evidence to back them up.

moriz · Nov 30, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- So you're supporting my point that "strategy" in these games is really nothing more than gambling on your opponent's expectations?

your ineptitude shows again. starcraft played on the professional level rarely goes down to gambled moves (or luck for that matter). that's why pro players place so much emphasis on scouting. the ability to keep a scout (usually a worker) alive in an opponent's base, and the ability to use that scout to actively disrupt an opponent is a very skill intensive task. likewise, the ability to kill that scout (or deny it completely) also involves a lot of skill.

btw, if you really want to see how your "bot" will work in starcraft, it's already been made for you. their names are flash, jaedong, and beSt. they are all very mechanically sound and have dizzying high APMs... and none of them managed to win the last OSL championship. the winner of that tournament, stork, have less than 2/3 of the APMs of these three, and managed to beat everyone (including beSt in an epic semifinals). obviously, being able to execute build orders like a robot won't help you win.